Curse

NukeItAll · May 13, 2008, 07:43 AM // 07:43

I basically need some confirmation and some advice on the price.

I thought I either had to go for:

Ceremonial Daggers or Talons of the Forgotten

Is that correct and also, howmuch should I pay for them?

Ghostcell · May 13, 2008, 08:13 AM // 08:13

you should be able to get them for about 8k or so quite easily.

GWEXTREEMFAN · May 13, 2008, 11:26 AM // 11:26

6k each

but i would go for a 15^enchanted more than a 15^50
but your choice there

NukeItAll · May 13, 2008, 11:32 AM // 11:32

is there a green weapon that has those mods? and if so, which one?

Bobby2 · May 13, 2008, 11:55 AM // 11:55

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darkroot%27s_Daggers

Both have their merits.

15^enchant - permanent because of [skill]critical agility[/skill], bar the occasional strip.
15^50 - as good as permanent, because once your health drops below 50% it means your Monk is in trouble/not paying attention and you should GTFO anyway. Also, not f-ed on the occasional enchant strip.

Zahr Dalsk · May 13, 2008, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Damage inscriptions only affect base weapon damage - for daggers, you gain at most 1-2 damage per hit. It's useless. (This is the same reason Flurry is great for PvP assassins - it only affects base damage and so only drops DPH by 1-2; resulting in overall DPS being much higher.)

Take a +5e I Have The Power inscription (or equivalent green or one of those trashy non-inscribable items); it's much more useful.

Stormlord Alex · May 13, 2008, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Damage inscriptions only affect base weapon damage - for daggers, you gain at most 1-2 damage per hit. It's useless.

Take a +5e I Have The Power inscription (or equivalent green or one of those trashy non-inscribable items); it's much more useful.

+5e is only doing something for you if you actually bottom out your energy; to my mind its more useless than 15^50 - I'll take the free damage, I nary need the energy on a DB/MS 'sin.

And if I do need the energy, hit F2 to switch to +5e daggers - there's no sense in passing up free extra damage.

IrishCB · May 13, 2008, 02:18 PM // 14:18

15^50 is more conditional than a 15^enchanted, its easier to cast an enchantment than to get a heal spike imo. If you are having E problems, which you really shouldn't playing a sin; just pick up a Zealous set and switch back and forth, In a chain zealouls + e gain from crits you wont have any E problems.

Utaku · May 13, 2008, 02:28 PM // 14:28

What Alex said.
Can't get why people are still arguing against +15% damage when +5max energy is just a weapon switch away.
Oh and customize your daggers too, everything adds up...

Chthon · May 13, 2008, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Prefix: Keep vamp and zealous on switch. Use vamp normally, switch the zealous when your energy starts to head south and for traveling between mobs.

Inscription: 15^50 in both pairs. Beats 15^ench because stripping is (or at least should be) far more common than a monk who will leave you under 50% for more than a second or two, and you should probably be kiting instead of attacking if that happens. Beats +5e because your chain is not expensive enough to drain your whole pool at once.

Suffix: +5AL is better than +30hp for most PvE purposes, especially on sins who are notoriously short on armor. If you really want to get fancy, you can bring a second pair with +30hp for severe death penalty situations and the few monster sets that largely ignore armor. 20% ench is appealing given the number of enchantments on some M/B builds, but I think you'll find you can maintain them OK without it.

Zahr Dalsk · May 13, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

5 energy is more useful than 1-2 damage per hit, in my opinion.

Just like minor runes are better than superiors - 'tis about the same principle.

moriz · May 13, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

+5energy is useless when the combo already fits without it. in that case, you'll be better served with more damage, even if that damage is 1-2.

Tyla · May 13, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

15^50.
Zealous.
Fortitude.

No energy problems at all unless your build is fugly.
+5E set for DP.

IrishCB · May 13, 2008, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

5 energy is more useful than 1-2 damage per hit, in my opinion.

Just like minor runes are better than superiors - 'tis about the same principle.

15% of max 17dmg = 2.55
Customized 20% of max 17dmg = 3.4
15^50+Custom = 5.95dmg/dagger strike

Double strike = 2%/rank Dagger Mastery
Depending on build (Example 13+1+1) 15x2=30% to Double Strike
4 Chain combo 5.95+5.95+5.95+(5.95x2)= 29.75 extra dmg/chain this does not include if you double strike; that is variable so I did not add it for raw output.
Add Vamp thats +5x5=25 more dmg/chain for a total of an extra 54.75dmg/chain, imo thats way better than an extra 5e. To each their own

Bobby2 · May 13, 2008, 09:58 PM // 21:58

- You can't double strike on attack skills (except duals).
- Every weapon is assumed to be customized, so it's irrelevant to the damage comparison.
- You base your numbers solely upon max dagger damage = wrong.
- Vampiric mods are also irrelevant.

The (average!) damage gained from the 15^X mod (assuming its req is met throughout an entire chain) would amount to...

Average base dagger damage: ( (7+17)/2= ) 12
Average damage gained per hit: ( 12*0.15= ) 1.8
Do note that this does not take critical hits into account.

Your example chain is a bit odd, if not impossible (3 attack skills before the first Dual?), so I'm going to use a standard instagib Offhand-Dual-Offhand-Dual build instead.
Of course, there's a large chance to critical. Going by these stats:
12+1+1 Dagger Mastery (19.6% base chance to crit)
12+1 Critical Strikes (13% additional chance to crit)
so roughly 1 in 3 attacks would crit. As an instagib chain hits 6 times, this would result in 4 'average' hits and 2 criticals:
( (1.8*4)+(2.55*2)= ) 12.3 extra damage from the 15^X mod alone.

There's a factor I haven't taken into account: if a Dual crits, it always seems to affect both hits. I haven't found any definitive info on this, just my personal experience. I'm no calc head, but I like to have all the relevant info, so if any one else feels the need to crunch some numbers they are free to do so

Kaleban · May 13, 2008, 10:03 PM // 22:03

+5E is a good inscrip to use on Ebon daggers for bypassing warrior bonus armor. Since you don't get the benefit of zealous, the extra energy helps getting one more nasty attack skill off, or in helping setup your beginning enchants/hexes.

I've not met many sins that use weapon switches to +5E daggers for hiding energy, if you're waiting until your energy bottoms out to switch, you're already in big trouble.

+5E is most useful for frontloaded spikes, such as using [skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill] is PvE or [skill]Shadow Prison[/skill] in PvP.

As to the OP, you might be better served by just getting through the Factions campaign and using an amulet of the mists for daggers, although just by playing you should get some max damage daggers and a zealous mod from drops.

IrishCB · May 13, 2008, 11:36 PM // 23:36

http://www.oildrip.com/calc/index.php
Damage Calculator: Have fun

Bobby2 · May 14, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishCB

http://www.oildrip.com/calc/index.php
Damage Calculator: Have fun

Doesn't take an Assassin's CS attribute into account. Nice one, though.

Kaleban · May 14, 2008, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by NukeItAll

I basically need some confirmation and some advice on the price.

I thought I either had to go for:

Ceremonial Daggers or Talons of the Forgotten

Is that correct and also, howmuch should I pay for them?

BTW, a good sin has several pairs of daggers for different situations. I usually have these:

Zealous 15>50 +30
Vampiric 15>50 +30 - Shiro's FTW!

Ebon +5 20% Enchant

Use Vampiric for spiking, Zealous when energy is low or as the "general purpose" set, and the Ebon switch to setup enchants and/or when facing down warriors. It may not be a big deal, but I use Dragon Scythes (kamas now) for the zealous set, IIRC slashing damage resistance is less common than piercing in PvE, and I rarely see people use +10 slashing in PvP, although the shield inscrip is becoming more common. Since Ebon translates into elemental damage, the piercing/slashing becomes moot, I slapped it onto a pair of zodiac daggers, which overwrites the "piercing" damage type. I chose Ebon because its the least common elemental resistance, and works with [skill]Ebon Dust Aura[/skill] which can be a barrel of laughs lol.

Yes, Shiro's Daggers have that high req 13, but they're just so cool!

IrishCB · May 14, 2008, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Doesn't take an Assassin's CS attribute into account. Nice one, though.

No it doesn't unfortunately. I actually thought double strike was % on every strike; was confused because of the way they word it. I searched the wiki and found nothing. So with every rank we get 2% to DS but you can't DS on Attack Skills, Dual Attack always DS. So we get the 30% on our auto attacks? I still dont get what the % to DS from?
"The chance of performing a Double strike is increased by 2% with each rank in Dagger Mastery, and by 50% by the Critical Strikes Elite skill Locust's Fury. Dual Attacks automatically double strike, while all other attack skills are incapable of double striking."- Wiki What I get from this is that DS% is only applied to auto attack?